Jason Pinto
When you step off into the realm of machine learning, that is where essentially you’re not generating fixed rules. So that really is in my mind what differentiates a set of algorithms which are rules based from machine learning.
Sebastien Leitner
Welcome to The Turnaround. My name is Sebastian Leitner. And in this week’s episode, I’m interviewing Jason Pinto. He’s the cofounder and COO of PACE Revenue. Jason has a great profile. He is a technologist at heart. The conversation really is around where’s revenue management going with the sort of merge and emergence of artificial intelligence, machine learning, and conversational, you know, artificial intelligence, if you will. I challenge him because I want to know, is it going to replace revenue address on-site? He stays clear of saying yes, but I can’t wait for you to discover his perspective. So let’s roll the tape.
Welcome to The Turn Down. I’m really pleased to be joined by Jason Pinto, COO and Co founder at Pace. Welcome, Jason.
Jason Pinto
Thank you, Sebastian. Great to be here, and thank you for having me.
Sebastien Leitner
Absolutely. Absolutely. I wanna get right into it. I’m curious what’s keeping you up at night these days, Jason.
Jason Pinto
Well, I guess I’m, not alone in worrying about the broader macro economy. You know, it’s a kind of a tricky time this and that there’s some indicators that look very positive, job growth, salaries, and so on, but some that look pretty negative, of course, inflation and in particular, the UK and the eurozone inflation in particular. And of course, fears about, you know, production in China and so on. So lots of things we can’t control that are keeping me up at night.
Sebastien Leitner
Help me demystify some of the assumptions that that that we have. You’re based in London and the UK, and we hear stories like there is no tomatoes or there is no vegetables and there is no fruits. Is that sure? Should we send a care pack?
Jason Pinto
Thank you for your concern. I know you friendly Canadians are always very concerned about people in London. But, no. It’s it’s obviously, some of the daily newspapers getting a bit ahead of themselves. Yes. There were shortages here and there, but nothing like the kind of epidemic, this sort of grinding to halt image that people had of the UK. What is clear is that the UK does have, much higher inflation than, say, anywhere in North America at this point, and that’s not great. So we’ve had a difficult time keeping inflation, in check. And that’s partly because our central bank has been slower to respond than the US Federal Reserve. But, it’s it’s we’re still here. We’re still here, and the, my the team across Europe is is sending us care packages, to to make sure that we we don’t, we don’t miss out tomatoes.
Sebastien Leitner
Alright. Excellent. Well, you mentioned the economy. So on on one hand, there’s inflation. There’s the cost of living that is increasing. On the other hand, hoteliers and travel as a whole seems to be going okay. It seems to be going well. What’s your point of view there?
Jason Pinto
Yeah. I think, obviously, this is all about perspective. So, of course, our industry came off, a hundred year pandemic. So, you know, probably the worst time that anyone in the industry alive has ever seen. So off of that base, we’ve done incredibly well in twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, and now twenty twenty three. So I think there was obviously a lot of pent up demand and obviously a lot of the sort of pandemic money that went into people’s pockets went into travel because consumers were doing revenge travel and so on.
And I think as well a long term trend of remote working and the digital nomad has obviously helped travel and transport more broadly. So I think all indicators were looking positive versus that very low base and in general versus sort of long term historic norms. That and I saw, you know, one kind of slightly worrying graph, which is that, you know, there was a surplus of cash in the US just after pandemic times, and that’s being unwound as we speak. So, you know, there’s probably a few months left of surplus cash in the consumer’s pocket. We’ll see how travel and transport fares once that surplus cash has been spent, and we are kind of back to normal in that regard as well. But certainly in the, in the sort of short tube where, you know, all systems go and everything appears to be continued pointing upwards into the right.
Sebastien Leitner
Based on the data you’re seeing, are you expecting the summer to be high demand, high ADR continuation of what you we’ve seen in twenty twenty two?
Jason Pinto
Yeah. I’d say that’s the case. I’d say that, you know, obviously, summer is such an important time for hoteliers everywhere, and we don’t see any worries about summer. So we’re quite excited and our customers are quite excited about a great summer ahead of them.
Sebastien Leitner
And then moving out of summer, is there, I I don’t know, stormy clouds ahead or, are things sort of tampering off from your perspective?
Jason Pinto
Well, my crystal ball, unfortunately, is not as players most others, and more importantly, I’m not in the business of forecasting. That’s a Look at instant opportunity to look foolish. Right? Economic forecasting. So, you know, I think mixed signals is the best I can see from what I’ve read and from what our customers are saying. So we’ll see. That far ahead is is starts getting trickier.
Sebastien Leitner
Excellent. I’ll look at this recording in six months and, and see how we did against it. As I said, forecasting is an easy opportunity to feel foolish in a few months for day go. Jason, I’m curious how you got started, with PACE. You’ve been the co founder, I believe since twenty seventeen, if I’m not mistaken.
Jason Pinto
Yeah. We got started then. Yeah.
Sebastien Leitner
Help us understand how you got started, what the idea was behind it. Yeah. Tell us how PACE become became PACE.
Jason Pinto
Sure. So those that know me and my co founders and the great team that we’ve been lucky enough to have join us on this adventure will note that, you know, we’re mostly technologists, data scientists, engineers, etcetera. And we brought on over time some really excellent people from the hospitality industry. But we didn’t start there. We started mostly with entrepreneurs and techies like myself. And we started there because we had, you know, this kind of much bigger desire to solve price. Every company needs to have a kind of a b hag, a big hairy ego. And so that was ours. Right? We it was clear to us that price was being set quite badly using Excel spreadsheets, heuristics, etcetera, or very old software in lots of industries.
And so we actually started much broader than just the hospitality industry. We started with desire to solve price using the tools of modern data science, decision intelligence, machine learning. But very quickly, we decided to focus on hospitality because of all the amazing dynamics that you find in the hospitality industry. First off, it’s a gigantic industry. I’m preaching to the choir here, obviously. But I think most people outside the industry don’t realize how huge the industry is. Yeah? Touching a trillion dollars on a good year in in spend.
And, you know, that’s an entrepreneur’s dream come true, a big market with what was clearly still an unmet need and, you know, competition that hadn’t completely dominated the space. So those are the things that really took us in to focus in on our hospitality market from, you know, soon after founding. And it’s been a great journey since, in that we’ve been, you know, continuing to build the team and grow up grow both on the technology side, but also with some really amazing people from the hospitality industry with that right balance so that we can sort of challenge the orthodoxies of the industry, but obviously know enough to speak our customer’s language, understand their pain points very clearly. So we think that that balance is really an important one to strike and we, we continue to work hard at that.
Sebastien Leitner
As you went from sort of pricing potentially more goods to focusing on hospitality, what were some of the unique traits this industry had that you sort of observed that you were surprised of maybe?
Jason Pinto
I think complexity is one. So I think from outside the industry, people go, oh, you’re just setting prices. Wow. Well, that really belies a a lack of understanding about how complex things are when you get into the complexities of rate codes and the incredible numbers of integrations you need to build and the sort of lack of data and the scarcity of good data as well. You really are into a problem that is quite a difficult one to solve because of that. As well, the number of people that need to be involved in the decision. And that it’s not just setting a price, setting a restriction, managing a rate. You have lots of people involved in the process, both, you know, from the decision making standpoint, but also downstream of the decision.
So for all those reasons, I think the complexity of the problem was something that, you know, the more we dug early on in the company’s life, the more interesting it was to us. And for us as technologists, that’s a moat because we want to go solve hard cost hard problems for customers. Right? If if the problems are easy to solve, you don’t generate a significant moat behind what you’re doing. So that was that was great to us.
But I think the one other thing that was, I think, difficult about the industry is that there’s and you’ll probably resonate with this as well, Sebastian, that there’s a severe underinvestment in technology across the hospitality industry. For good reasons. I mean, the industry has been very cost focused for a very long time, and technology is seen as a cost center. So consequently, everyone is looking to try and find the least expensive solution to their problems rather than the best one that can grow their business, grow their revenue, accelerate their decision making. So I think that’s been something that we’ve, you know, hopefully as an industry getting, getting past, but, you know, in some cases persists.
Sebastien Leitner
That’s so interesting. You mentioned in your description, of your product, machine learning and, I guess, artificial intelligence. How much of, I guess, your product is is controlled by artificial intelligence, if if I may call it like this? Is there a is there is there, a virtual mind behind your tools, behind your algorithm?
Jason Pinto
Yes. Well, you saw my eyes light up once you stumbled onto that topic. So to get, you know, go to the start for a second, we started this company with the strong conviction that machine learning was gonna change every industry, not just hospitality. So we’re really excited that the kind of rest of the world has caught up to our excitement about ML and AI.
In terms of whether there’s a brain behind, behind me here that’s, that’s a sentient brain, I think, you know, I’m I’m at at, paradoxically incredibly excited about the future of AI and machine learning, but also a bit pessimistic in that, you know, the hype is is pretty wild at this point, right? With people saying that these machines are sentient and so on. They’re not. Machine learning has become an incredibly powerful tool to essentially do automated decision making and assist humans in making better decisions. But in no way is the no case rather is the tool sentient. So there’s not some brain that’s gonna, you know, herald a kind of a two minutes or two apocalypse behind me. It really is about a better decisioning tool to drive better, better commercial decisions.
Sebastien Leitner
At the risk of nerding out, I want to learn from you because I think you’re the person that I will learn from. I’m familiar with the concept of what an algorithm is. At what point does an algorithm stop and machine learning start? Like, where where where where does the one plus one equals two plus x plus y plus two to the power of stop and become a self learning, I guess, mechanism, if you will. Yeah. Yeah. What can you help me understand that?
Jason Pinto
Absolutely. Absolutely. And we’re strung into waters where there’s active conversation, not just amongst technologists and entrepreneurs, but philosophers, people who study, you know, the mind’s eye and these kinds of things. So we’re getting into very deep waters here, but I’ll try and not make it too boring a lecture.
I would say first off, the division in my mind between AI and machine learning, the real rigorous use of AI, I think, should be reserved ultimately for artificial general intelligence. So these are really sort of multi domain intelligence systems that we haven’t produced yet. So that’s, you know, what I think most rigorous scientists would would use, as a definition for AI, but we happily will use AI to describe describe other systems in a in a more colloquial way.
In terms of when you go from a line that is an algorithm to machine learning, I’d say first off, you start with a rules system. So in its simplest form, algorithms are essentially a set of rules. And that’s the way lots of other platforms and, you know, prior to the advent of machine learning, basically all, quote, intelligent systems operated, right, where there were rigid rules that were ultimately quite fragile. When you step off into the realm of machine learning, that is where essentially you’re not generating fixed rules. So that really is in my mind what differentiates a set of algorithms which are rules based from machine learning. It’s where the fixed rules are not being generated by a human. Essentially, they’re not being hardwired by a human being. They essentially are generated as a consequence of the data you feed the system to train it.
Sebastien Leitner
Okay. Oh, I I got it. Hopefully that made some sense. I know it’s normally when I I start talking about ML and AI, people start glazing over. You can tell me the rules were as in my TGS because this is an area I’m quite passionate about. So the the the algorithm the rules are more flexible. They can be used I guess the machine decides what rules to apply based on the data that is
Jason Pinto
Essentially. Essentially. In in some sense then then it’s it’s not a rules based system because rules generally implies something’s been hardwired by a human being. Yeah. Okay. Essentially, an if then statement for those that are a little bit more computer literate like yourself. Versus something that’s more flexible, more open, and and less rigid.
Sebastien Leitner
Alright. I I I think well done. I I’m I’m I’m smarter, which is great. No. Let’s let’s bring this intelligence, if you will, or this machine learning to a hotelier. A property, and and let’s start with that, which is sort of the small independent fifteen room property of which there are plenty of, in this world, that doesn’t have a revenue manager on-site. Right? There is no revenue management practice. How do we help them, I guess, discover revenue management with step one and step two is potentially, you know, get them to use a tool like your like your product pays, but, I’m sure there are others out there as well. I’m I’m just curious, like, how do we remove some of the fear and at the same time, you know, maybe work on the awareness that such tool is critical? What’s your what’s your point of view there?
Jason Pinto
I think, first of all, you have to be thinking about the upside. So, you know, we didn’t build this business to create clever science experiments. We built this business to produce results for our customers. And results then means better performance commercially. So all our customers engage with us because we produce better results and we have a really exciting roadmap of, you you know, additions to our platform that will continue driving better results. So that’s the first thing I would say to someone in these kinds of conversations, that revenue management is really about generating better results. And if you’re doing nothing today or you’re in an Excel spreadsheet or something along those lines, there’s a lot of low hanging fruits that will immediately drive better results for you. So, you know, it’s it’s essentially a commercial argument as to why you should be using a revenue management system like PACE revenue.
I’d say the other important bit is that it drives better decision making outside of the sort of tactical things that a, that a machine learning system can do. In that the human being is not totally cut out of the loop. In fact, the human being here is freed up from these sort of short term tactical decisions so that they can make better strategic decisions. So our platform enables better data driven decision making for the human users as well. So in many ways, this is going to make your day better because you’ll be freed of sitting behind an Excel spreadsheet. All of that busy work will be taken care of by the machine learning AI system. You’ll be focused on some key strategic decisions that can really drive a differentiated, improvement for your business. And then you’ll be off doing what you started the business for, which is pleasing guests. Right? I mean Most hoteliers get into the business because they want to provide a great service and engage with a customer, not because they wanna sit behind a computer with an Excel spreadsheet. This product frees you from that and enables you to be on that path.
Sebastien Leitner
So continuing on that train of thought, if I’m a owner and operator of a hotel, set hotel, let’s say fifty or even a hundred rooms, Should I hire a revenue manager? Should I purchase a revenue management system? Just Yeah. Well, again Do I need to do both? Or do I need to do both?
Jason Pinto
Yes. Exactly. Exactly. So I would say, you know, so most of our customers are quite a bit bigger. So they have revenue teams actually in most cases with, you know Not just a VP of revenue management or a chief revenue officer, but teams below below them as well. I would say as you get to the smallest scale, you get into the question of, does it make sense to have a full time revenue management person or a part time? You know, there’s some excellent individuals out there who do revenue management consulting where they’ll basically help you manage your business using a product like ours, but they’ll do that for a number of businesses.
So I think, the combination of the human and the person, we believe, is the one that results in the best outcomes. It’s really a question of finding the right platform for you, of which we are. We are one and we think we’re the best out there, but don’t take my word for it. Look at the results. But then also in terms of the people, there’s really quite a broad array in that you don’t have to have a full time person if you’re at such a smaller scale that it doesn’t make sense. There’s some great individuals out there who can do it part time. So it’s not either or. It is I don’t think so. I really think the combination is the one that that results in a win here.
Sebastien Leitner
Okay. Very interesting. I wanna lighten a little bit this conversation because we went right into deep waters, with machine learning and our AI. I wanna do a quick lightning round. So the purpose here is to just, you know, say what comes to mind. I I’ll throw a word at you and, you know, you can, you know, let your mind wander if you will. I’m gonna start with travel in twenty thirty.
Jason Pinto
Human.
Sebastien Leitner
Social media.
Jason Pinto
Opportunity and accent Yeah. Exactly. Opportunity, but challenging.
Sebastien Leitner
Okay. Bleisure.
Jason Pinto
What I want to be doing.
Sebastien Leitner
Digital marketing.
Jason Pinto
Incredibly important.
Sebastien Leitner
Direct versus OTA.
Jason Pinto
More complicated.
Sebastien Leitner
Luggage.
Jason Pinto
I would like to leave behind.
Sebastien Leitner
Turn down.
Jason Pinto
A great podcast that I happen to be speaking on now.
Sebastien Leitner
Okay. Excellent. Excellent. I wanna talk a little bit about, I guess, COVID. I know we’ve left that behind you. You mentioned it early on, in your remarks as a, I guess, driver of a different perspective. You know, we’ve we’ve we felt in your commentary, at least you mentioned that we felt very positive about the last three years, but that’s on the back of, you know, a period of time where travel has completely stopped for a lot of countries and for a lot of people, that were restrained at home. I’m curious what you personally have learned from this experience, if if if I may say so.
Jason Pinto
Sure. I think, you know, it’s clear that the time was so challenging for hoteliers, but, we have deep empathy for people that went through such a difficult time because it was a very difficult time for us as a company as well. You know, we were still in the early days of pace and, you know, getting hit with this kind of existential crisis early on in the business’s life was not easy. For me, what I learned was really the resiliency of people. In particular, I’m so proud of the team of people that we’ve been lucky enough to recruit, around us that, you know, people hunkered down, gritted their teeth, powered through it, supported each other through this time, which was was tricky for everybody personally, not just professionally, but really came out strong. And to me, that was just a huge testament to the resiliency of, of people around us and, and the grit that people have when they’re really put to the test.
Sebastien Leitner
Is there a change that you didn’t see coming out of the pandemic?
Jason Pinto
Well, I mean, the thing was when we were in the early days of the pandemic, nobody knew anything really. Right? And there were probably some epidemiologists and virologists who had, you know, many PhD theses written about what would happen, but they were mostly ignored, unfortunately, and it really is. So no one knew, and so I had very little expectations about what would, what would come to pass.
What has been amazing, though, is just this incredible adoption of technology during that time in every sphere of our lives. Right? I mean, we’re speaking on one right now, a video conferencing that has just accelerated to the stratosphere during this time. It’s now the norm. Pre COVID, it was something that a few techies used. I mean, it was important, but not nearly as structurally important as video conferencing is today. And I’d say that’s an example of a lot of areas of technology that were really, received this kind of huge accelerant through through the times of COVID.
And I think, you know, the other thing, of course, was the incredible bounce back of businesses like Airbnb, for example. I know it’s the the hotelier’s favorite, favorite threat and favorite, thing to worry about, But they were a good example of something, a business that a lot of people counted for dead and came back stronger than ever. And I think as part of the hospitality community, we should be cheering that because that’s that’s part of the partly the story of all hoteliers.
Sebastien Leitner
Yeah. Amazing. Let’s stick with technology for, for a minute. I’m curious what technology you think will disrupt the travel industry the most in the upcoming years.
Jason Pinto
I mean, I’m talking on game here, but ML and AI, are clearly going to be hugely disruptive. You know, you’ve seen, for example, the many cool experiments people are running with these, with these generative, generative chat models, planning holiday holidays and so on. So I think it’s really interesting because these things can essentially pass intent in the way that we had reserved essentially for a human being in a previous go round. And that’s clearly going to change the way people plan travel, book travel, etcetera. Of course, anything quantitative like revenue management has already been disrupted by machine learning. So that’s only gonna continue. But I’m, as I said earlier, just an extreme optimist about what’s coming down the pipes, albeit with some, you know, annoyance at the level of hype. But, I think I’m extremely excited.
Sebastien Leitner
So so what area do you think will be most disrupted when we stay with AI or the generative, I guess, intelligence or creation of content. We talk a lot about, you know, application and support, in guest communication, in, maybe FAQs that, you know, the Internet can answer all the questions that I may have about a specific destination. But are there particular areas that you think will be disrupted more? I still think that we haven’t figured out search, for instance. Right? I don’t want hundred pages of results. I want one product that fits my needs. And
Jason Pinto
Yeah. You want your question answered. Right? You want your question answered. No. Exactly. And and of course, Google’s recent release of BOD at at Google IO is moving in that direction. There’s huge consequences for the economic structure of the internet actually, because so much is driven by search revenue that, you know, moving to essentially a question answer format is gonna change just structurally change so much about the economics of the Internet.
But, you know, I’ll try and stay away from my own area because that’s probably a little bit boring. But one thing that is clear actually is the generation of content is totally disrupted by this. And that, you know, some of the more intriguing examples you’ve seen produced by generative AI have been story generation, email writing, content writing for marketing. So these areas, I think, are already in the bull’s eye of this of this technology and will only be more so as we add more capable image generating models, for example. Right? The ones that are out there are okay, but they have problems with hands and a few other problems. But once we start being able to generate, you know, more lifelike images, more lifelike video from a prompt, it’s sky’s the limit, quite frankly, of what kind of content we can generate to drive better marketing performance.
Sebastien Leitner
Now I wanna talk about what you think it will do to revenue management as well because, you know, I consider you somewhat of an expert in that field. So, do you mind predicting what it will do to revenue management?
Jason Pinto
Not at all. So I would say more of the same. So we, as I mentioned, started this company to drive down this path of creating autonomous, autonomous systems. And I think that’s going to only get an ex a huge accelerant from the investment that the broader AI community is putting into this technology. What does that mean for Hautilya? Well, better results, first of all, and that these systems will be more capable of actually generating the right price restrictions, etcetera. So really incredible in that regard.
But I think as well, a better interface to more parts of the organization. In that right now, you know, probably revenue managers engage with the numbers and they are the interface that has to provide essentially a translation layer between the numbers and a kind of a human storytelling around the numbers. I think that’d be hugely assisted by some of the generative models that we’re seeing now that can essentially explain what, what some of these models are doing to drive better revenue. So I think they’re going to be really powerful co pilots or aid to the smart revenue managers out there. In in some sense, I I like the term force multiplier and that they will really provide a huge multiplier of the power that revenue managers currently has in in her or his head and hands at this point.
Sebastien Leitner
So in other words, a description of the graph that you’re seeing in front of you, and what the critical, I guess, takeaways are from the statistic that is presented to you.
Jason Pinto
Absolutely. I mean, I think one of the things that you always see being pitched to revenue management, you know, people coming up in the revenue management industry is part of their job as a revenue manager storytelling. You have to be able to pitch why you’re doing what you’re doing to people outside of the revenue management space, your chief commercial officer, your CEO, etcetera, and get them bought into the strategy you’re adopting and, you know, basically why you’ve made certain decisions that you’ve made. There’s going to be more and more, I think, from the sort of generative ML market, helping revenue managers be better at that. In addition to driving better results, which is not again, what we are ready down the path of. So I’m, I’m quite excited about, about these kinds of things, ultimately making the revenue manager a hero here.
Sebastien Leitner
That sounds like a huge enabler, which I’m very much looking forward. Before we wrap up, I I’m curious if there’s a question that you would have liked me to ask you. Is there any topic that we haven’t covered that you’re passionate about that, you wanted to cover?
Jason Pinto
Topic I’m passionate about. Let’s see. Gosh. Well, we’ve we’ve obviously spent a lot of of time talking about what is my favorite topic. So I have to think of my second favorite child, if that’s if that’s an allowed expression.
Sebastien Leitner
Does that exist? Does that exist?
Jason Pinto
Yeah. I mean, yes. You know? Yeah. I have a broad church of of love. I’m I’m all about the love here. Excellent. I I would say, you know, one of the things that I think a lot about is the change that’s happening more broadly to the hospitality industry. And again, this is at its core a change driven by technology. So, you know, I’ve spoken a lot about ML and so forth, but I often tell my team that, you know, we kind of live in the future And if for a lot of businesses, a spreadsheet in a website isn’t like magic. Right? Like, lots of businesses are still at the early days of adopting technology.
So just doing things in the cloud is something that’s quite new and can be quite scary to lots of people who have not been on this journey before. But so for me, it’s it’s it’s a broader story about technology adoption and the wave of change is happening across this industry driven by, you know, the consumerization of IT. Everybody has an iPhone or an Android phone and expects that kind of experience from their enterprise software as well. You know, everybody has mobile Internet and expects to be, you know, connected everywhere. So I think these kinds of pushes that came from the consumer world actually, what makes me quite excited about this kind of wave of technology change and adoption that’s happening in the industry. And it benefits all of us. Cloudbeds is a good example as well. So it benefits all these companies that have been basically, you know, early days pushing this change for a very long time. So I think that’s the second child I would say
Sebastien Leitner
Passion of excited about exactly. Exactly. But it does require some human humanity. I think that we can’t forget that. Right? That we have to take these, you know, these humans along this journey with us and can’t can’t get swept away speaking about AI and and the philosophy of AI. Ultimately, this human being that has been the driver’s seat for all these technologies.
Alright. Final two questions. I’m curious if you could live anywhere in the world, where would where would it be?
Jason Pinto
Well, again, you’re playing to my type here in that I’m from Trinidad and Tobago. So, you know, that Going home? Being able to go home more often is something that I really have set on as a as an important, important milestone or metric I need to hit this year. The family are getting a little bit annoyed. They haven’t seen me very often. So that that would be one. And then, we have spent a fair bit of time and have some good friends in Brazil. So, you know, I suppose I’m boring in that I I stay within the Americas, but we do we do love the music. We do love the culture. We do love the passion of the people. So there you go.
Sebastien Leitner
Perfect. And it sounds like you can put one next to the other because it’s in the same time zone or at least it’s same same same direction. Jason, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciated your insights, your conversation, your with around, you know, revenue management, AI, machine learning, and everything around it. With that, thank you so much for joining me today, and I look forward to seeing you soon. For sure. Industry event nearby in some more direction.
Jason Pinto
Sebastian, thank you very much for the time. Thanks for having me on, and thanks to the audience for the attention.
Sebastien Leitner
Thank you for listening to The Turndown. Don’t forget to subscribe and tune in next week as we discover new exciting guests.
