Bashar Wali
We’ve forgotten the business we’re in. We’ve forgotten this idea that we that we existed on, this idea of feelings and emotions. Hospitality is how you make people feel. It’s not what you serve them and how you serve them. It’s how you make them feel. And I think until we come back to that, we are a diversion of commoditization.
Sebastien Leitner
Welcome back to the Turndown, the podcast where we explore the minds shaping the future of hospitality. Today, I’m thrilled to bring you a conversation with someone who truly sees hotels through a unique lens, Bashar Wally. Bashar isn’t your typical industry expert. With a self described one night stand relationship with hotels, having stayed in over two hundred and fifty different hotels in Manhattan alone, he’s earned his insights through firsthand experiences. What sets Bashar apart is his philosophy. It’s not the fancy flooring or the designer art that makes a hotel truly stand out.
It’s the human connection. He argues that whether it’s a seven star hotel or a humble hostel, what remains is the memory of genuine interactions. If you’re ready to explore what truly makes a hotel memorable and learn how to create authentic experiences that stick, you’re in the right place. Let me challenge you. I believe Bashar Wally’s insights will change the way you think about hospitality. Bashar, it’s a pleasure to have you on the turndown program.
Welcome on board. Great to have you on the program.
Bashar Wali
Delighted to be here. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Sebastien Leitner
I’d like to kick it off with our standard opening question, which is what is keeping you up at night these days? Oh god. How much time do we have?
Bashar Wali
I’ll go on for an hour about what keeps you coming. You this is this is a safe space. I mean, look. We we live in a crazy world, and this is not a political conversation. I am concerned for our children and our next generation and what mess we’re leaving behind for them. We are very hypocritical because we keep saying, don’t worry about it.
The kids will fix it. They’re smarter than us, but we’re leaving them a shit show that may be beyond fixing. So that globally kinda keeps me up at night. But really more practically and on a micro level, I’m an owner, operator, and operator, and, you know, it it’s really becoming hard out there. Margins are getting squeezed. The labor market continues to be super tight.
I’m an avid flyer traveler, and I say, as much as I travel, I don’t like turbulence. Nobody likes turbulence, and I feel like the industry has a lot of turbulence and uncertainty. And even though you look out the window, it’s blue skies. There shouldn’t be turbulence, but there is turbulence. You know, clear air turbulence is the worst kind. So what keeps me up at night is the turbulence coming in so many different headwinds.
Again, the labor market, the rising costs, the, the guest expectations, the owner’s budgets in some cases, the brand’s requirements. If you’re an operator out there today, really across any spectrum, it it’s tough being an operator. It’s not it’s not as much fun as it used to be. And we’re trying to do the right things by our stakeholders, and we have a lot of stakeholders. Our team members, number one, obviously, our owners, our partners, our lenders, our customers, obviously. So, yeah, it’s, it’s not a ton of fun, but we are plowing away and blue skies ahead.
What goes up must go down. And you and I have been around long enough to know that our business is cyclical, and it’s just this too shall pass.
Sebastien Leitner
So I am not doom and gloom. I am actually looking forward on, at the blue skies on the horizon. You mentioned that our business is cyclical. Where are we in the cycle these days from your perspective?
Bashar Wali
Sebastian, if I was smart enough to know the timing of the cycle, I would be sitting on my mega yacht in the south of France right now and not talking to you. No offense. Generally speaking, we hotels follow the real estate, cycle, generally seven years. You sort of climb up to the top, then you crash. The last upcycle pre pandemic was, like, twelve, thirteen years that it was showing no signs of stopping. We were on a tear like we’ve never seen before.
We’ve hit heights we’ve never seen before. In comes the pandemic, a once in a lifetime, I hope, event. We’ve never seen anything like it. So now the downside of the cycle was longer because of that. I feel like we’re starting to see green shoots across lots of areas. The one thing I am disappointed about in our industry generally is I feel like I’ve seen no innovation in the last five, seven years.
And with innovation, I hate the word disruption. I don’t know what disruption means. I think we’ve only seen two disruptive events in our lifetime in hospitality, and that was the Internet, which disrupted everything. And then I’d say Airbnb was a major disruptor. Outside of that, we’ve just sort of tinkered around. There hasn’t been really any true innovation or disruption.
I am thirsty for innovation. And by innovation, I don’t mean take the bed and put it on the ceiling because that’s shock and awe. Innovation doesn’t mean screw up with a good thing that’s working, but it means rethink how we do business.
Sebastien Leitner
Some of the examples I use is I say, who decided in hotels when you work in a hotel that the shifts are seven to three, three to eleven, and eleven to seven? That’s not how the world works anymore. That doesn’t meet our need period. Technology now allows us to maybe be more thoughtful about how we do it, but we’re not doing it. So that’s what I’m thirsty for. I’m thirsty for innovation.
I’ll throw two things at you, and I’ve I’m I’m wondering what your reaction is going to be because I wanna challenge there’s no innovation. Right?
Bashar Wali
Like, I wanna challenge you by saying, what about social? Is that not disruptive enough? Social media, you mean? Social media as a as a demand generator. Right? As a I think of social media as a way to democratize what else was a very expensive endeavor.
Okay. If I wanted to reach a broader audience in the past, I had to go buy an ad in the pick a magazine and spend tens of thousands of dollars. Sure. But I argue that social is an extension of the Internet. The Internet gave us that democratization. Sure.
TripAdvisor at the time was the early one where it said, listen. I will tell you everything you need to know about hotel. Why should it be a Marriott or a Hilton for you to understand level of quality? I am an end user, and I’ll tell you in real time. I think social is just a different channel of that. I don’t think of that the Internet was disruption and innovation.
Social media is an extension of that, so I don’t think of it that way. I am a true believer, and we can talk in nauseam about the importance of it going forward. I actually earlier was having a conversation about I wanna be in the New York Times so I can brag to my snooty friends at a cocktail party that my hotel made it in the New York Times. At the end of the day, that’s not how business gets through my door. It is TikTok and Instagram and all of the other things, for sure. So I think part of the lack of innovation is the fact that our industry sadly continues to be dominated with middle aged white dudes who think they know everything, who still wear double breasted Chinese suits.
The same guys who said, oh, yeah. That Internet thing is a fad. It’ll go go away. Until those guys change their mind and understand how the world is working today, and those who have kids will understand how the world is working, and I’m happy to give you a real life example. But it’s really hard for us to innovate when those in charge, And and I’m generalizing, obviously. There’s a lot of amazing hotel leaders that totally get it are on board, but the broad majority is stuck in the nineteen nineties hotels.
Again, we wanna be on the Chamber of Commerce Ford, and we wanna go play golf with whoever, and we wanna take an ad in the magazine. And we think social is cute. We’ll just throw a couple bucks at it just for giggles. Alright. So in short, social is just an extension of the Internet. And that’s how I think of it.
A democrat a tool that allows us to democratize what otherwise was exceedingly hard to accomplish and reach, and that’s eyeballs.
Sebastien Leitner
Okay. Fair enough. Next one is AI. Come on. It does have potential to disrupt. May not be there yet.
One thousand percent, I am all in. Okay. I’m an avid true believer that it will help us get there. Remember, we hotels are notoriously late adopters. We are dinosaurs. I use this example, and it and it and it drives me crazy, and I bitch about it regularly.
I see a pair of shoes on Instagram. I click three buttons, and they are in the mail coming my way. I go to a hotel’s website to book a room. On step twenty two, I am in the ZIP code field, and they’re making me change my keyboard from alphabet and numerical to put in my ZIP code. So you know what I do?
Bashar Wali
I abandon. I go to Expedia. Sorry, hotel people. You keep fighting me from booking with you. I click two buttons and my room is booked. So we are dinosaurs, and we are traditional thinkers.
Why the hell do you need my ZIP code? Like, why is that important? You can get that data from the credit card processors. Where are my who’s my business coming from? But we are stuck in the, here’s how we’ve always done it. Here’s what we should always do.
Retail out of necessity because they’re at the verge of death, the death of retail. Necessity is the mother of all invention, figured out how to change that paradigm and change that narrative. We haven’t because we keep thinking of ourself as, oh, we’re in the guest service business. Buddy, I’m here to tell you, you’re a retailer. In fact, you’re the worst kind of retailer because your inventory is perishable. If you don’t sell that room tonight, it is gone forever.
And if you don’t think of yourself as a retailer, you’re dead. Sure. Guest service, obviously. That’s the business we’re in. That’s the product we sell because you don’t take the room home with you. But if you don’t think of yourself as a retailer, you’re dead.
So back to AI, huge believer. Broadly technology, I will explain my view on it, AI included. Use those tools to allow you to remove the friction of the process, but don’t use it to remove the humans. Use it to reduce the number of humans, hire more sophisticated humans that can engage with your guests in the art, not science, of human connection. It’s a superpower. Hundred percent.
Sebastien Leitner
I mean, think think about back in the day, if you were a salesperson or whatever, an account manager, you managed twenty accounts because that’s all you could do. Technology allowed you to manage two hundred now. Right?
Bashar Wali
Because it’s simple it’s your superpower allowed you to do more. And yet in hotels, we’re still clunky, and we’re still, again, sign here and initial there and stick your credit card here. Again, I am on Instagram. I think about it. It shows up. I click Apple Pay.
It’s done. Like, how why are we fighting? The technology exists. So I think we will be late adopters to AI. Alright. But let’s take a pause or maybe a step back.
Sebastien Leitner
You are a hotelier. Yep. Right? Talk to us about your business. Explain to the audience who you are, what you do, what hotel businesses you run because you’re you’re you’re sort of including but also excluding you from, you know, hotels in in general. And I I wanna make sure that you are part of this ecosystem.
By the way, when I talk about my dream, my nirvana of hotel world, I’m not saying I am there. People often mistake my bitching about things that I’m saying. I’m perfect. No. No. No.
No. I’m part of the system, unfortunately, for better or for worse. I’d like to think we think about things differently, but at the end of the day, we are all part of the problem, all of us. I am proud of the fact that many people, many I know and adore and hopefully they adore back, don’t know what I do. Because I’m a believer in what you do is what pays the bills. It is not who you are.
Now, thankfully, what I do is what I love, and therefore, it is not work. But I’m truly proud of that fact. And and my my my colleagues and partners say, dude, are you stupid?
Bashar Wali
Like, you have all this audience. Why don’t you stand out and say, here’s what I do. Come buy my thing, but I’m happy not to. But in summary, I say I’m a hotel guy. Everybody needs a guy. I wanna be your hotel guy, Sebastian.
So from concepting, syndicating real estate, creating hotels, advising on people who wanna create hotels, sort of all the prework, we do all of that under one company. Then I also now have a hotel management company. So, Sebastian, you have a hotel. You want someone to manage your hotel for you. You call me in and manage your hotel. So real estate advisory development, hotel management.
And some hotels we invest in and own ourselves. Some we have no investment or ownership in. And my portfolio is very almost schizophrenic in a way because I am more focused on the deal than some singular flavor. So I am working on a luxury resort on the sand in Saint Thomas, US Virgin Islands, and I have a roadside motel on Route sixty six in Flagstaff, Arizona. I love these very unique projects in the new towns, and I am happy to let the institutional world call some of those states fly over because I can’t compete in Miami and New York and LA. Someone will always outweigh me in terms of capital, access to capital, what they’re willing to pay, etcetera.
But I’m happy to go to Bentonville, Arkansas and Colorado Springs, Colorado and Tulsa, Oklahoma. I love those markets. And I think they’re also thirsty for innovation because they’ve been overlooked for a long time. And if you circle back to this idea of democratization, good taste has been democratized. Not just New Yorkers know what a good hotel is. Everybody knows what a good hotel is now.
Sebastien Leitner
So why are we giving them crappy offerings when they’re sophisticated enough to know what they need and want? Oh, man. I have so many follow-up question. I’ll start with the one is what makes a good hotel. What a great question. How many hours do we have for this?
Bashar Wali
Seven hours, I hope. Look, I for those who know me, and and I say this a lot, I’m sick and tired of hearing myself say, so forgive me. I have a one night stand relationship with hotels. I travel neurotically. I go to New York for three nights. I move every single night, never the same hotel twice.
My current count in Manhattan is two hundred and fifty one. I didn’t know there were two hundred and fifty one hotels before. God. I haven’t run out by the in many markets, I have run out. In New York, you you can’t run out. There’s so many hotels.
Because there’s a new hotel every day. Every five minutes. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Nashville seems to be on that train.
There’s, like, twelve thousand hotel rooms coming this coming this year to Nashville. Anyway, so the reason I say that braggingly, sure, I’m bragging, even though it’s neurotic, no one should do it. I don’t know anyone who does it, is because I wanna be able to tell you when I say something, Sebastian, trust me. I know. I’ve earned my knowing. I’ve paid for my knowing with blood, sweat, tears, and money.
And we all tour a lot of hotels. I tour a lot of hotels. I was in London for two days. I toured twenty one hotels.
Sebastien Leitner
Right? So I tour a lot of hotels. Changing hotels. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
But the point I make is when you tour a hotel, you really see it differently than when you stay in a hotel. And the reason I say that is we we humans, when we’re asleep, we’re in our most vulnerable state. So our senses are heightened. I wanna hear that elevator that’s too loud and the toilet flush next door to me, and I wanna look at that smoke detector that’s flashing in my eyes in the middle of the night, things you miss on a tour. So that has given me, I’d like to think, authority for what I’m about to say. So what I’m about to say is I’ve stayed in and, again, bragging.
Please forgive me. I’ve stayed at Virgil Arab in Dubai seven star hotel. I’ve stayed at the Ice Hotel in North Wiesen in Sweden. I stayed at the Feralda Hotel in Amsterdam, which is three rooms inside of a working crane. I stayed in hostels and shared rooms with sketchy people doing sketchy shit in the middle of the night. I’ve seen the broad spectrum.
Right?
Bashar Wali
And I’m like, now the hell with your stars. I don’t give a crap about your diamonds. Who cares about your Michelin keys? There’s really only two kinds of hotels. You’re either memorable or forgettable. And memorable could be really, really, really bad, but it’s usually really, really, really good.
And people say, well, what makes a hotel memorable? And I say, I go to New York. I stay at the Pick a Hotel, the Peninsula, the baccarat, pick something fancy. Ask me what kind of flooring material is in the bathroom at the baccarat. I don’t know. I don’t give a shit.
I didn’t take the marble with me. I could probably tell you given the hotel that it’s nice and fancy. And, sure, it’s baccarat, so they have a lot of crystal. And, yes, the art, I’m sure, was fabulous, but none of it I bring home with me.
Sebastien Leitner
Right? So fundamentally, what I bring home with me is an interaction with a human, an employee likely, or even another guest for that matter. And those interactions are what makes a place memorable. So out of the two fifty one in New York, I always say my standard line is people say, what stands out?
Bashar Wali
I say, I only remember when someone goes out of their way and genuinely underscore gives a shit. The bar is so low. So what makes a hotel memorable, in my opinion, is other humans. Hopefully, it’s a team member and employee who is emotionally intelligent enough to know how to find that one little thing about me to tug up my heartstring to make me like them and love them. And what will make me like them and love them is them making me believe that I individually matter. I am not just another guest or another VIP or a transaction.
I am me. You are Sebastian. You matter to me. Right now, you’re standing in front of me. You are my entire world. I care a bit less about anything else.
If you manage to do that, your hotel is memorable, hands down every time. And it takes very little money and very little effort. What it takes is a lot of thoughtfulness and intentionality. You have to be thoughtful and intentional about it. I use this example often. I literally just did earlier this morning.
I go to the airport. I look at the screen. Delta guy. I have status with Delta. My name is on the top of the upgrade list. I don’t get excited.
Sure. Getting an upgrade, I’m not turning down. But I Bashar did not get an upgrade. It is a mathematical formula. A system said, oh, this record traveled this many miles and has this much status, therefore, he gets the upgrade. Sure.
I’ll take your upgrade. I go sit on the airplane. I get a mid flight flight attendant comes up to me and hands me a postcard handwritten by the pilot. By the way, it may not be the pilot, and it may not be his handwriting. You can buy a machine that’s had his handwriting now. But it says, dear mister Wally, thank you for being a million miler.
Thank you for blah blah blah. Thank you for flying with us. You’re the reason we fly. I am king of the world. That card will make my experience more memorable sitting in the middle seat in the back in front of a baby kicking and a guy sleeping on my shoulder and drooling than being in the first seat, first class as a transaction where, sure, I got an upgrade and I traveled. And people misunderstand that concept.
It’s simplicity. It’s virtually no cost, yet it’s immense effect. Is it something we teach?
Sebastien Leitner
Interesting subject again. I have been working with a dean of school, hospitality school, college about the idea of, can we create and if someone out there has it, call me. I’m everywhere on every social stat you can find you you will not find a hard time finding me. Can we create an emotional intelligence aptitude test that I can give to a candidate?
Bashar Wali
And by the way, housekeeper, it doesn’t matter what level. Sure. I can teach you how to do the things and push the buttons and push the paper. I can help you improve on the emotional intelligence you have, but I can’t teach it to you. By the way, I attended a fascinating session with a fabulous woman, I forget her name, who talks about microexpressions. We, human, have microexpressions.
We can’t help ourselves. You could be a CIA agent for twenty years, and you can’t help yourself. And the example she gives, if you’re selling someone, look at their eyeballs. If their pupils dilate, stop talking. They’ve already bought. They’re now excited.
They’re aroused. They they bought what you’re selling them.
Sebastien Leitner
Right? And the more you talk, the less excited they become. I can teach you that because that’s science. Right?
Bashar Wali
But the other nebulous part, I I I don’t think and I I’m happy to be wrong. I want you to have it in you. I’ll work on improving it. And what does that really mean at the end of the day? Let let’s, again, bra brass tacks and and get really tactical. If I show up at eleven o’clock at night to check-in, I’m staying one night, everything is closed.
Sebastian, read the room. For god’s sake, don’t tell me about the spa. Don’t tell me about the brunch you have because I’m only staying one night during the week. The brunch isn’t happening. Someone else shows up fumbling through their bag, complaining about their trip. They wanna be talked to.
Talk to them.
Sebastien Leitner
How was your day? How was your trip? Do you want me to tell you?
Bashar Wali
What can I get you? Do you need a glass of champagne? Can I get you a double shot of espresso? If we manage to figure that out, and, by the way, back to what I said earlier, I’m not telling you I’ve perfected that. That’s what I strive for, and I wish my industry strived for together. That that to me is Nirvana.
That makes the hotel memorable. I’d like to hear somebody ask me, do you need a glass of red wine? Are you still hungry because you had crappy food options at the airport? Those are the two things I would love to hear at a restaurant. Percent. And guess what?
They can throw all the miles and points they want at you. They can give you all the extra points. You are not coming back because of the point. Sorry, brands. Points are not a loyalty program. Oh, we have to talk.
I’ll put opinion to that. We’ll we’ll Points are a bribery system. I’m happy to talk in nauseam about it. But, again, to your point, the way I create loyalty with you, Sebastian, as a guest is I read the room and I say, hey. Where are you coming from? Oh, I’m coming from Washington State, and I’m in Florida.
Oh, man. That’s probably the longest continental flight. You must be exhausted. I’m sure that food on that plane was fabulous. By the way, our bar is open late, and their best thing is a burger. You should go get that burger.
Trust me. It’s really good. I’m gonna call them while you go to your room to make sure they know you’re coming and not close until you come down. I am yours for life. You’ve won me. Done.
But that’s sort of where I’m I keep going back.
Sebastien Leitner
How do we teach this? Right? And the reason I say that is, you know, for all the tech innovation, for all the AI, for all the automation that we’re going to put in place, as I tell you, even the ones that are adopting technology late or changing or late. Right?
Bashar Wali
At some point, the hospitality transaction will be, I guess, concentrating on these few seconds of interchange, like, between a hotel employee and a, you know, guest. And the time they have together will become less and less. Right? Because you’ll have the app to preregister or, you know, payment is fully automated. A lot of these things, your phone will become your your key. Right?
A lot of the reasons why we had to actually exchange with a hotel employee will become less and less. Great point. Great point. So how do we teach the staff, the next generation hotel employee, who we still have a hard time actually recruiting.
Sebastien Leitner
Right? Like, let’s let’s how do we teach them about creating these micro moments? K. So a couple of things. I often use the airline industry as sort of an example. Yeah.
They masterfully masterfully managed to get rid of the people in the front. Remember, you walk up to the counter and there’s twenty people?
Bashar Wali
Now there’s one. They’ve masterfully managed to remove the friction using technology. Right? I check-in. I check my bag in. I do all the things on my phone.
The advantage they have over us is they have a hostage on that tin can in the air for two, three, five, ten hours. And they are they can and will engage with us to demonstrate their service and create loyalty by being interacting with us and having an emotional intelligence. Right? We hotels have the danger of and I’ve done this before. You know, it already exists, obviously, the key on the phone, etcetera, where I literally will never even see anyone. I zip through the lobby straight to the elevator, go up to my room, do my business, come back, leave, and never engage with anyone.
And that is an option I have. If I choose to want that, I have that option. I want you to give me that option. Don’t force me to come sit at a desk with you in the lobby and chitchat with you because ultimately, it’s not about you. It’s about me. A hundred percent of the time, it should be about me, the guest.
Sebastien Leitner
Right? So my my philosophy on this is we, hotels, should use technology to remove the friction. Right?
Bashar Wali
Don’t ask me to initial and sign and stick my credit card in and do all that business. Retail has figured it out. Why do I need to do it here? Reduce the number of people that you have in need. Don’t eliminate them. Reduce them to allow you the freedom to have higher quality people that are emotionally intelligent, that are kinda like the maitre d’ in the restaurant who had no job.
Their job was to walk around a glad hand and shake hands and kiss babies. Right? So now as you’re running through the lobby with your phone to go to your room, I’m gonna I’m gonna stop you for a second and say, welcome. Anything I could do for you? Nope. Great.
Have a great day. I’m here if you need me. So this idea of removing friction to allow better interaction, I think we are doomed if we remove humans altogether because then we are a commodity. And if you are a commodity, like gas is a commodity, I don’t care what Exxon’s Exxon’s tagline is or Shell’s colors are. Gas, all I care about is price and location. And if that becomes the only reason I’m buying a hotel, we’re all dead.
Sebastien Leitner
So I I I fear that the removal of humans in the interest of squeezing margins, which I get it’s stuff out there, is a dangerous slippery slope to go down. Now can I teach you?
Bashar Wali
I personally believe not. The way I think about it is I say kinda like the old adage at any hotelier will know this. If I’m the boss and I’m walking around and I walk past a piece of dirt on the floor and don’t pick it up, what message am I sending to you? Don’t pick it up yourself either. So this idea of creating an environment that fosters and celebrates employees, teammates getting out of their way to do this and setting it by example. And to me, fundamentally, this boils down to the way I treat you, my employee.
If I’m in tune with your emotional needs and I’m emotionally intelligent about your needs, it’s gonna translate. Think about the message we tell our people by saying, your bathroom, dear employee and locker room, could look like freaking war zone. I don’t care. But that lobby bathroom, I better be able to eat off the floor.
Sebastien Leitner
What message am I sending you? What am I telling you? You don’t matter. You’re inconsequential. You’re just you’re disposable. It’s all about the guest.
Marriott, I think, said, if you take care of your people, they will take care of your customers who will eventually take care of you. Like, that has not gone out of style. That remains today, but, again, we all are too busy focused on trends and Instagramable moments and shock and awe to actually really focus on what’s important. Me included. Me included people, we are not perfect, far from it. And you and I are probably not the average traveler that, you know, would actually stay in in most hotels.
Right?
Bashar Wali
You said two hundred and fifty hotels you stayed at in New York? In New York. Yeah. I look back at twenty twenty four. I had fifty nights away from home. Fifty.
Right? Of the fifty nights I had away from home for for business purposes, there’s maybe two or three that I remember. Exactly. That’s the point. But isn’t that shocking? Is that bad?
Is that good? Is that It’s disastrous. It is disastrous. Because if you don’t remember, when you go back to that market, you’re gonna be looking for the next shiny thing rather than saying, oh, that place that got me that thing when I needed it, but the the Joe at the front desk is my guy. Everybody needs a guy.
Sebastien Leitner
You know? Joe is your guy. You’re gonna go to Joe. Your loyalty is to Joe, not to the hotel, not to the building, not to the art, not to the points, not to any of that stuff. So if we don’t manage to give you a reason to talk about your stay when you go home, disastrous fail. I mean, in in in their defense or in our the property’s defense, I usually arrive late, leave early, and that’s Same.
Same. But, again, it doesn’t require much. I’ll give you another example I used earlier. I’m top status on Marriott. I’ve stayed in hundreds of Marriott. I like my room, more temperature year round, sixty four degrees.
We now have the technology to allow us to make that happen. K?
Bashar Wali
Twenty percent of your customers give you eighty percent of your business. You would think once in literally hundreds of states, someone pressed the button from their desk. They don’t have to even get up to turn the temperature down in my room and take credit for it. Mister Wally, welcome. We know you like your room cold. I hope it’s ice cold for you when you walked in.
That’s it. By the way, there’s no human in by the way, people confuse this idea of human must be a person I’m talking to. No. No. No. No.
Human could be a note. It could be a it could be a bot once perfected text message. Once once perfected once perfected. And I test those, by the way. Like, I’ll I’ll I’ll play games with them to make sure they’re actually a human. Most in most cases, they’re not.
But that that’s how you win the guy like you and me who shows up at eleven, leaves at seven, wants nothing, blah blah blah. Make me feel because if you don’t, you’re a commodity. I needed a bed and a shower. You gave me a bed and a shower. Thank you. Next time, I’ll find a better bed and a better shower.
Or I’ll think I might find a better bed and a better shower, and I’ll move on. But if you did that room for me, I’m like, crap. Why did they know that I like my room cold? Love those guys. As what other surprise will be in in in store for me next time kind of thing? You’re hooked.
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Let’s go to loyalty programs. Primary programs.
You okay. You made that controversial statement, right, that it doesn’t lead to loyalty. Fair, true, false? I’m I’m gonna I’m gonna put the question back to you. Sebastian, you come to my hotel. That’s good.
Sebastien Leitner
Right? That’s forgettable. Like many other hotels, it’s really good. It checks all the boxes for you. I sleep well. Okay.
Thank you. And I give you points. I decide a month later, I no longer wanna be a part of a points program, and I say no more points. Are you still coming to me?
Bashar Wali
Of course. You’re not. I let me re rephrase that. The reason why originally came had nothing to do with the points. Okay. But then then you’re not the right audience.
But this idea that Okay. You come to my hotel, I give you points. Okay. My proposition to you is if I stop giving you points, you’re no longer coming to my hotel because there’s another hotel next door that’s just as good that gives points. Right? The only reason for you to forego the points and not go to the other hotel is to think that I am better somehow.
And the better rat race is hard to compete in. It’s it’s leading us to spend ridiculous amounts of money, make no margin at the end of the day to accomplish this goal. Yet my proposition is I can build loyalty with you without spending the money by attending to your needs. To not convince you to go to the hotel next door because of points make you be willing to trade the points for the comforts and the connection I give. Now there’s a lot of hardworking folks out there, middle management that don’t make a ton of money, and the only way they can take their family on vacation in the tough economy is with points. I am not knocking those, ladies and gentlemen.
They are doing the right thing. I would do the same exact thing as them. I am talking about the experience seekers who are everybody in nauseam is talking about storytelling and authenticity and experiences. If you find a hotel that provides you that without points, you’re going to it. In my opinion, that’s what you’re choosing because that’s your goal. You’re not chasing the points.
So this idea of calling something a loyalty program when in fact it’s largely about bribery and points, I think that’s where the fallacies. Not suggesting there’s anything wrong with them. By the way, the Peninsula Hotel in Beverly Hills, very, very high rate of return, guest return. No points, obviously, Peninsula, seventy percent or something like that. They did a survey and asked everyone, Sebastian, why do you keep coming back here?
Sebastien Leitner
Right? It wasn’t points. They said, the number one, by the way, was no check-in time and no checkout time. Come when you want. Leave when you want. We’ll figure it out.
We’ll accommodate you. And what that says to you is, hey. You know how it goes when you travel to Europe from the US. You’re red eye. It’s there at ten o’clock in the morning. I know you have a room.
Like, I know. But the easiest thing for the lazy person to just say is, I’m sorry. Check-in time is at four o’clock. I get it. Sometimes it’s not available, but back to emotional intelligence, slipping that in for a minute. Sir, I’m so sorry.
No rooms are available, but I’ll tell you what. We have a spa downstairs. Why don’t you store your bags here?
Bashar Wali
Here’s a toothbrush and toothpaste. Go get freshened up, whatever. Give me your phone number. I promise you’ll be my first text when there is a room available. Technology has allowed us to to remove the friction. I don’t need to wait for you and send you a text.
It can be automated. But the easiest thing for people that lack emotional intelligence to say is, I’m sorry. Check-in is up for. End of story. Right? So so that’s what creates loyalty, and, ultimately, loyalty programs should be focused on your needs and your wants and far less on the points.
I think Kimpton for a while, the OG Kimpton did a system that was focused on that and less on reward. It really was about, how do I make you join this cult and drink the Kool Aid without having to pay for it? And the way to do that is by acknowledging you as an important member of this club and not just a statistic. This is becoming a big business, loyalty points.
Sebastien Leitner
Right? Point systems is huge. Right? If you add credit cards, if this is a big dollar amount. Right?
Bashar Wali
And, ultimately, it’s done on the back of hoteliers to a certain extent because you’re paying Hundred percent. Right? But it’s also a lot on the value proposition of a lot of brands that are offering franchisees is like, hey. I’ll give you access to this frequent traveler, right, that has this type of profile, this this, etcetera. It becomes almost a financial decision. Is that a bad thing is, I guess, my question.
It is a necessary evil. Okay. Kinda like OTAs. Being on the OTA is a bad decision. I’m paying them twenty to thirty percent of the top. That is a necessary evil.
So you have to embrace it until there’s a different solution. My problem with these systems is that we, the consumers, are perpetuating this thing about their value and their importance. Case in point, by the way, and I want this to say this often publicly. I’m gonna give Marriott some credit here. I believe the most important thing we want in life these days is access. Access is really hard.
The reservation at the place that you want, tickets to the concert you want, blah blah blah to the whatever you want. Marriott astutely realized that, and now part of their program is this sort of early access idea. If you’re a member of Bonvoy, we’re gonna give you access to this concert. We’re gonna host this event. We’re gonna do this thing. They’re catching on to the diminishing value of points for some.
That’s some. Because some of the affluent travelers that are pursuing experiences not points will trade the points for the access any day. And if you don’t think that Marriott doing this is their realization that this system of points is losing its momentum in a certain segment of the market. Back to my early comment about, again, Joe road warrior who’s can’t barely can survive paying his bills, let alone go on vacation. That’s how he’s going on vacation. Joe, good for you.
You should chase the points. And my argument is that Joe will sacrifice quality. He will go to a lesser quality hotel and pay more money for it for the points. Totally get it. Respect it. Not knocking it.
But for those experienced seekers, and we saw it in a lot of the independent hotels we have, Sebastian would walk up to the front desk to check-in. He would open his wallet, and every brand top status card was there. His ma’am. Yep. He chose to stay here with no points. Look.
We no longer live in a binary world. It’s not like points are bad. No points is good. There’s a place for all of them to exist. But my proposition is is the way we travel. I’m a big fan of human behavior.
I don’t like trends because trends go away quick. Human behavior takes a long time to adjust. We are dying for I actually trademark this term in hospitality, longing for belonging. We all wanna belong to something bigger than we are, and I actually credit the proliferation of private membership clubs to that, that we’ve lost we’ve lost religion as a place of belonging. We’ve lost political parties as a place of belonging. We move away after after high school.
Do we never come back home again?
Sebastien Leitner
So our family nucleus, this old idea of we belong to this family, those group’s gone. How what do I connect with?
Bashar Wali
How do I associate with? Oh, I’m a member of Soho. I saw I’m a member of, Estelle Manor, or I’m a member of this. So I feel like these loyalty programs, for the lack of a better term, have a great opportunity to be far more or maybe tier their systems to create the one for the point, who wants a freebie, tit for tats. Right? Or the ones that wanna belong, that wanna try that gives them access to things they wouldn’t otherwise have.
Amazing job on Marriott’s part for doing that. I think they’re realizing it and seeing what’s happening, and they’re adapting and adjusting in real time. Not eliminating because there are those who want it, but adapting and adjusting. So, frankly, for me, the importance of the club back to the check-in and checkout and status, like, I love this idea of upgrade or early check-in, late checkout. But my proposition to you is hoteliers, you could do that anyway. You don’t need someone to belong to something to do it for them.
Emotional intelligence case by case. If you have it, what’s the downside? Give it to them. In your portfolio of properties, any independent hotels? We have a mix of both.
Sebastien Leitner
Yeah. Probably largely leaning on independent. We have a lot of hotel owners on this program. Right?
Bashar Wali
And they’re listening to this conversation. What’s your sort of go to decision brand versus independent? If you are doing a hotel in West Hollywood, my proposition too is you don’t need a brand. You just need to be good at what you do because that’s the profile of that customer in that market. West Hollywood, not Hollywood, just to be micro clear. A hundred and fifty room hotel.
If you are doing a three hundred and fifty room hotel in suburban Boise, Idaho, you need a brand.
Sebastien Leitner
If you think about how how we how we consumers historically bought rooms, let’s talk about that for a minute. Back in the day, your dad who was who lived in Washington, DC and he was going to Seattle, would call his travel agent or secretary, and that’s the term I’m using, and say I’m going to Seattle. And they had a book on their desk this thick that had all the hotels in the world, whatever that was, hotel index, whatever it’s called. I used to have them by the bunch. And they would open it Seattle. They would look on the list.
They would see Marriott. They’d say Marriott. Done deal. I know what I’m getting. There’s reliability of execution. He’s a Marriott guy.
I’m gonna book him the Marriott Hotel. Fast forward to today, you don’t have a secretary or a travel agent. Your secretary is Siri. You’re going on your phone. You’re saying Seattle hotels. A hotel pops up at the top that grabs your attention with their photos, with their copy, with their logos, with their dancing monkeys, whatever it is that grabs your attention.
You pick that hotel. You click book now. That hotel happens to be a Marriott. Marriott says, oh, I brought you Sebastian. Like, no, you didn’t. I brought me Sebastian.
My hotel brought me Sebastian. He was funneled through you for you to take the credit for it versus being in suburban Des Moines, Iowa or Boise, Idaho where a meeting planner is trying to bring a hundred people and they’re saying, hey. Where are we gonna meet?
Bashar Wali
We can’t meet in Boise. It’s too expensive. Let’s go in the burbs close enough to the airport. Oh, there’s a Marriott. We know what we’re gonna get. They’re not searching the net for it.
So in that case, a brand is appropriate. Now in fairness to the brand, they realized a decade ago that we, the independents, were eating their lunches, and they created these collections now that I argue is the best yeah. The the the the best of both worlds because the collections give you the machine. I actually have one. I’ll give you an example. Wyndham, which is not known for being in that lifestyle space, owned a brand called Registry Collection globally that has only five star hotels in it.
Sebastien Leitner
So we have a hotel in Colorado Springs, Colorado, and they really wanted it. And we couldn’t find a Wyndham brand that fit, and I knew nothing about registry. And they said, what if we make you the first hotel in the US to have the registry brand?
Bashar Wali
And we’re doing the calculus. We’re in a tertiary market. We’re the nicest hotel in that market by virtue of their innovation that we did. Find us the Broadmoor. If you know the Broadmoor, that’s sort of the elite resort. We’re not in the resort space.
And we said, you know what? It’s a good insurance policy, number one. They allowed us incredible freedom beyond any other soft brand I’ve seen, incredible freedom. We take advantage of the big companies buying power, particularly on the OTA front. Right? So we have that advantage.
Sebastian, if you’re a points guy, I’ve got them. So it’s not a handicap that I don’t got them, but I challenge you to walk in the hotel and see anything that says Windham on it. You won’t.
Sebastien Leitner
So that to me is having your cake and eat it too, is the idea that I have the machine. And by the way, Wall Street still loves the machine because a bank who’s going to give a loan on a Marriott will not get fired. They’ll say, oh, I gave a loan on a Hilton. Why would I get fired?
Bashar Wali
It’s Hilton. First thing, oh, I gave the Shmukh Bashar alone on an independent hotel in a tertiary market. And because they’re lazy, they have to do a lot more work on Meet to figure out who the hell are you, is your proforma real, what’s happening here versus having the Marriott or Hilton or IHE stamp of approval. So in that case, this is where the value of the brand comes into play. The problem with some of the collections, and I won’t name anyone here except all of them, is to say that they almost become formulaic in a way that the now the anti brand soft brand becomes a brand in and by itself.
Sebastien Leitner
Yeah. Where are you staying? Oh, I’m staying at a Curio or I’m staying at an autograph or I’m staying at a whatever. Because part of the magic of big companies, their ability to scale. Scalability is the most important word. They’re gonna get more and more and more and more of them.
And the more you do have them, the more their very essence becomes formulaic and ubiquitous. The beauty of independence and the definition of an independent is one of a kind. Like, you can’t have two. Right?
Bashar Wali
People talk about these smaller brands, Ace and Hoxton at the time and all of them. The minute there’s more than one, it’s no longer independent. But the lines are getting blurred. We do not live in a binary world. I am a fan of all of them situationally. And, again, I made the case for a registry collection.
It’s a great brand that fit the mold that we needed in that case that aligned with the interests of the owner. And sometimes we operators wanna tell you what to do because we care about our reputation or our portfolio or whatever. Our job is to tell you what’s best for your asset, mister owner or miss owner. And in that case, we felt that was the best move for that asset for the owner.
Sebastien Leitner
I wanna talk a little bit about the future of hospitality and where we’re going towards. But before we go, there’s a couple of things I wanna go back to. Two hundred and fifty hotels in Manhattan. Fifty one. Fifty one. What’s your favorite?
Bashar Wali
Of course, by the way, parents, you all have a favorite child. BS, if you tell me you’re different. Of course. Of course. I am a sucker for the Crosby Street Hotel in Soho, Ferndale Hotel’s British company. And what I love about them is their neurotic attention to detail.
And let me tell you exactly what that means. I literally lie on the floor in the bathroom, and I scoot back like you’re scooting under a car to work on a car, under the sink, under the vanity. And every pipe that no one will ever see is beautifully wrapped and so much attention to detail and for an operator that just warms my heart. Another thing they have at all their hotels, they have three in New York now. One of them, I have not yet stayed at Warren Street Hotel in Tribeca, but I’ve done the other two, is they have this, like, bar cart near the lobby in the library. It’s got all the liquor on it, and there’s a little piece of paper on our system.
Sebastian, make yourself a drink and write your name and your room number. Like, think about what that says to you. This idea that this is your home, do what you want at it. I’m sure if you’re gonna screw me, fine. You’re gonna screw me, but, fine. I bought you a drink.
But if it’s on the honor system and you know when you do that, a hundred percent of the people will write their room number down. That’s amazing. That’s true. That hotel, but endless Sean McPherson is my hero, hotelier in New York. Anything he does, I love his Ludlow. The new renovated Chelsea is spectacular.
The Mark Upper East Side is the best shower in New York City. It is literally Niagara Falls coming out of the shower head, which is a fetish of mine, water pressure. So many great hotels in the city. But, you know, they start blending together because we are a copy paste industry as of late, and that’s why sort of, again, back to innovation. My new favorite hotel shout out to is the Fifth Avenue Suites. Spectacular hotel.
I may the general manager, Elizabeth, managing director is an incredible human. She understands service and emotional intelligence. The developer worked on it for fifteen years, designed by Martin Brzezinski, checks so many boxes. It is spectacular. It’s funny you mentioned Showerhead. I was staying at this fantastic five star hotel in Tokyo indulging.
Sebastien Leitner
Right? Indulging yourself where, you know, my wife trip without the kids. It was perfect. It was perfect up to a certain point. And I caught myself asking for the manager on duty and said, you have a perfect hotel, except you need to descale your shower head. I couldn’t.
It it was stronger than me. I I I had to tell them that because I was like, how can this perfect hotel not have a descaled shower head?
Bashar Wali
Sebastian, Sorry. I am I am not worried about being accused of being neurotic. Okay. I literally travel with, like, a wrench, one of those rubber one of those rubber adjustable wrench. No. I take the shower head off.
First thing I do in a hotel, I flip it upside down. The water flow restrictor falls out. Used to. Now because of the EPA, it has to be built in. So I buy by the case, needle nose pliers, and I and I yank the thing out. Those pliers make it through TSA seventy percent of the time.
So if you happen to walk Right? You’re kidding. I’m not kidding. I am not kidding. If you happen to walk into a hotel room in New York and you’re like, my god. The shower head is really good.
You could probably there’s a high in that. High high chest I’ve stayed in. You can thank me for it. But this is another example of again, if you want to be an environmentally friendly hotel, go ahead, but don’t force me to do it. You know, like, the towel thing, if you want to change your towels, fine. If you don’t, okay.
Sebastien Leitner
I have the choice. Don’t force me to do what you want because it should be a hundred percent about me unless you tell me upfront. Right?
Bashar Wali
Similarly, this whole locking the thermostat down. Come on. Don’t force me. Let me choose to partake unless you tell me in advance. By the way, if you tell me your thermostat is locked or you have an impenetrable shower head that cannot be fixed that is low pressure, I’m not staying with you. I literally, I’m not staying with you.
And by the way, listeners, I have not met a thermostat yet, Dak. I have not hacked five minutes, and it’s not only shower head, but also upgrades your thermostat. Thermostat. Exactly. I I I I am I am, what’s the word I’m looking for? I I do a lot of destruction, along the way to the benefit of all.
Those are the frustrating things that happen again and again that really shouldn’t. Now in fairness to my fellow hoteliers, some state it is literally regulation, But, you know, you guys know how this works. You get the sign off on the permit, and then you go around and change all the things around to make it work.
Sebastien Leitner
So What was your wildest or most surprising hospitality experiences? Out of all the countries, all the hotels, wildest or most surprising?
Bashar Wali
I am not super religious, and I think of Anthony Bourdain as a prophet. And the way he traveled the world chasing not Michelin stars, but the moments that fulfilled his soul are sitting on a dirty floor in someone’s living room in Vietnam and eating the food they eat because it wasn’t about the food, and the food all of a sudden is better. Some of the most interesting experiences are those small plate like, a riad in Marrakesh where you’re literally sitting with grandma who made food for you, who doesn’t speak a lick of English, eating with them. If you understand what travel is about, your perspective changes, and your decision about what’s good and what’s not changes. I I I I’m, again, neurotic traveler, by the way, in addition to hotels, just travel. I’m actually leaving the country today to go to seven countries in ten, eleven, twelve days, something like that Would this idea begin one night stand?
I love the one night stand. Married a long time, by the way. The wife would not appreciate any other kind of one night stands, only hotels and countries. But this idea of this here’s the quote. A tourist sees what he came to see. K?
A tourist sees what he came to see. A traveler sees what he sees. I am a traveler. I don’t go chasing monuments. I don’t go chasing any Instagramable moments. I go and I see what I see.
And this other quote, this idea of don’t travel to discover the world, travel to discover yourself. So sitting on someone’s dirty floors, living room, eating whatever, stuff you can’t tell and you can’t pronounce, It’s not about the food. It’s not about it’s really about this human interaction. If you go back to what I said earlier about tribalism, we are tribal animals. We wanna belong. And the best way to enjoy a place, a country, a restaurant, a hotel is feel like you belong.
And I think if I can manage to make you feel that way, that’s how I win every time.
Sebastien Leitner
So, yeah, I would say sitting in someone’s house and in someone’s house hotel, not Airbnb, but actually being with them and being apart and feeling like you’ve been invited to your, whatever, aunt’s house for dinner, those are the most memorable, most exciting things. And, again, the surprise and delight things. Right?
Bashar Wali
The small things, the handwritten postcards, the whatever. If you like a certain black licorice. I like black licorice. If If I find the black licorice in my room for two dollars, I’m blown away. Not because of what it is, but because you gave a shit enough to take the time to go find out to do it for me. Alright.
Sebastien Leitner
Let’s talk about the future. You mentioned earlier that, hotels and you, you know, hospitality is very slow at adopting or changing or innovating, if you will. That that was sort of some of the words that you you were using. I wanna split it up into two section. What needs to change urgently and what will change in the next five years? What needs to change is our nonsense.
Sign here and initial there and stick your card here and all that stuff. What needs to change is our thinking that we are in the service industry when in fact we are in the retail industry. Make my process seamless. Get out of my way. Don’t ask me to do things that are meaningless to you and waste my time. What needs to change is us understanding that humans’ most valuable commodity that is run nonrenewable is time, not money, and not wasting anyone’s time.
What we need to understand is what matters. Enough with the Instagramable moments. We’re past that era. Let’s focus on what’s really important. And, again, longing for belonging. And the pandemic, by the way, has taught us the importance of that.
And I love this terminology from the pandemic that we all wanna be together alone. I wanna go sit in the lobby next to you. I may never say a word to you. I’m not sitting in my room chained to my desk working. I’m sitting in the lobby. I may never say a word to you, but there’s warmth in having a human in the same space as me.
It’s not lonely. Even though literally I may not say a word to you. So creating spaces that are conducive to that transaction, removing the word transaction from our vocabulary. Right?
Bashar Wali
We cannot be transactional about anything we do. So that’s a lot of the frustrating things that happen today. Don’t force your views on me. Don’t bait and switch. Don’t nickel and dime. I mean, I go on for hours about the frustrating things that happens, and they’re frustrating to everyone, not exclusive to avid travelers or whatever.
And I hear them a lot from from, you know, fellow travelers that are not in the business. The future is bright, I think, if we make it so or otherwise, it’s regurgitates it regurgitation of what we’ve done before. I think AI is a a massively valuable tool that we could put to work to our advantage. I wanna use it to learn more about my customers and their hopes, dreams, and aspirations. I think we need to rethink this idea of or overtourism. It is a problem.
It is real. We have to pay attention to it. There are eight point five billion people in the world, eighty percent of whom ninety percent of whom have never been to Paris or seen London or gone here, and they are going to destroy the planet by wanting to go there. And travel is the new status symbol. It’s no longer about my fancy watch or my fancy car.
Sebastien Leitner
I mean, I don’t know about you. The first thing in a conversation I say is, where have you been lately?
Bashar Wali
Where did you go on vacation? How many countries have you been to? Demonstrating the power of travel as the new status social status symbol. So over overtourism and destroying the planet and really sustainability beyond, oh, we recycle. Well, congratulations. Far more than that.
But I think the most important thing going forward for us as an industry is this idea of meaningful, purposeful. And not purposeful as in, oh, I’m gonna travel and go feed the hungry while I’m there or build houses for the houseless while I’m there. But it’s all about, like, meaningful. How why is this important? Why does this matter? Why am I here?
Why does this hotel exist?
Sebastien Leitner
Right? So really thinking deeply, especially generationally, I actually we we’ve coined the term give a shit ability. Sebastian, you have a job opening. You pay well. You have good benefits. I’m thinking about working for you.
The company next door to you has the same thing. They have a good job. They have good salary because that’s the price of admission now. You can’t be the high or low in the market. You have to follow the herd. So I say, Sebastian, give me a reason to care about your company over the next guy’s company.
Why am I here?
Bashar Wali
Why should I care? What are you doing that aligns with my interest? This is not a political conversation. This is not an activist conversation. This is a real conversation about what matters to the generations. And, similarly, why am I choosing your hotel?
Why am I staying here? Why is this important? Sure. You’re a shelter. You’re providing the shelter check. You’re a commodity.
Why are you not a commodity? So this idea of purposeful, meaningful is really, really important, especially to gen z, I think, now. But, clearly, all of us now are more interested in our impact. I think I think about my impact all the time.
Sebastien Leitner
Right? So if you don’t touch some of those touchstones, you’re gonna be left behind. I am definitely afraid of being a commodity. Deathly afraid. I I don’t think there’s a better way of wrapping up this program. Right?
Bashar Wali
I mean, a hotelier that is afraid of becoming an a commodity is admirable, right, because you’re constantly pushing yourself. You’re constantly working towards not being a commodity. Is that fair? Hopefully not. And by the way, relevancy as a human and as a company and as a brand, like, why are you relevant? How have you adapted and adopted what’s happening to remain relevant in the zeitgeist, whether it’s socially relevant, environmentally relevant, emotionally relevant.
Again, we are a commodity. Design good design is ubiquitous. Literally, it’s ubiquitous. Cool is ubiquitous. It’s no longer about the shock and awe things that we used to end with. It’s now being it you know, the way I describe it in closing, so some mic dropping for you, we are so focused on the trees.
We haven’t seen the forest in a long time. It’s time for us to back away and literally see the forest through the trees. We’ve forgotten the business we’re in. We’ve forgotten this idea that we that we existed on, this idea of feelings and emotions. Hospitality is how you make people feel. It’s not what you serve them and how you serve them.
It’s how you make them feel. And I think until we come back to that, we are a diverge of commoditization.
Sebastien Leitner
I have one more question that came up in my head that I think you will have a fantastic answer. What’s one thing in a hotel room that should be there that it’s not and one thing that will disappear. You’re adding another hour to this conversation. The inevitable desk conversation. Do we need a desk?
Bashar Wali
Do we not need a desk? I mean, think about it today. You are a digital nomad. You’re in Barcelona. You have to take a Zoom call at two o’clock in the morning because that’s how it works with time zones. You don’t wanna put pants on.
So now I’m forcing you to go to the lobby because there’s not any way for you to sit in that room and hold that computer in a way that allows you to You’re staying in the wrong hotel clearly. You’re being productive. Right? And I’m using, again, general. So this debate, desk, no desk, and I’m not using that example as just should go or come. I think it just becomes such an important thing, point of debate about how things change and how you have to be in tune and be, in touch with what people want and how they interact with the room.
I think something that should go away in rooms is carpets. I hate carpet. I’ve become sketched out by carpets now walking barefoot on a carpet. I think there’s so many elegant solutions that are not as expensive as having a hard surface like tile or wood. A lot of the LVT materials now are so beautiful that you can’t tell and an area rug for accent, but there’s something dingy about that hotel carpet that kind of sketches me out. Cover.
Same thing. And this this is a personal purse this mattress cover, I can get over because there’s a sheet on top of it, but the the the the carpet I think one of the most underrated amenity in a hotel room is fresh air.
Sebastien Leitner
Let me open my window. Right? Okay. Okay. Find a crack, whatever it takes, but allow me the opportunity. I toured some hotels in London recently, and they have this beautiful way where you can actually open the window.
But to mitigate the issue of legal, they have a sheet of glass inside that when you open the window, only the top is open. Hooks in the room, what a great inexpensive thing that could be a design element and a useful thing. Right?
Bashar Wali
So it’s just really, really I’m I’m a tea guy. I left tea, like, a tea kettle, and now you’re seeing the invention of now, like, pour over coffee that you could use the kettle for also that feels on point. Some of these touches and I I told you now you’ve added another hour to the show. Back in the day, hotels were aspirational and inspirational. Yep. They were aspirational because they had Wi Fi.
You didn’t. They had a flat screen TV. You didn’t. They had a good mattress. You didn’t. They had blah blah blah.
You didn’t. And they were inspirational because they had good design. They had good art. They had good music, you didn’t. Flip the narrative around now. Your home is more aspirational because your mattress is better.
Your TV is better, your technology is better, your Wi Fi is better, room service is there on demand if you want it. It’s called Uber Eats or whatever you use. And your design is better, and your arts is better.
Sebastien Leitner
So we’ve lost our place as the bastion of inspiration and aspiration. How do we get back there?
Bashar Wali
That’s the fundamental question. That is the most important question. How do we again become a places of inspiration and aspiration? And my proposition on that subject for another mic drop is the only way we can do it is think about it. When I go home now to my better design, better art, better TV, better, better, better, better, the only one that runs to the door excited to see me is my dog. So if you can find a way to run the to the door when you see me at the hotel and make me feel like I’m the only thing that matters, that’s how you become inspirational and aspirational again, because that’s the one thing I don’t get at home.
I can’t buy love at home.
Sebastien Leitner
Right? I can’t buy it, but damn it in a hotel, I’m paying you eight hundred bucks a night. I better be able to buy your love. Okay. Alright. Mic drop.
Here it is. Achar, thank you so much for sharing your time with us and, sharing your insights and your stories. Thank you. It’s great to have you on the program.
That brings us to the end of yet another episode of The Turn Down. Huge thanks for all of you for listening. We hope you enjoyed the conversation. Of course, this podcast wouldn’t be possible without the amazing team behind the scenes. A massive shout out to the producers, Paolo Kahrero, Linda Pejai, Lana Cook, Ricky Sherman, and Eilifakuhasen for the incredible research and preproduction work always keeping us on track. To Paulo Sanchez, thank you for your stellar audio editing and for making us sound so good.
And finally, thank you to Ying Liu for her organizational talents and keeping the season on schedule literally. Remember to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and follow us for updates and bonus content. Until then, take care and stay curious.
