Jacqueline Nunley
It’s time for some experimentation. I mean, don’t go wild, but maybe that is something that needs to be tweaked to encourage this younger generation to be part of what we call hospitality and the industry that we love.
Sebastien Leitner
Welcome to the Turndown. Today I sit down with long-time acquaintance, friend, companion Jackie Nunley. She’s at Salesforce. She’s an ambassador of the hospitality industry, if you will, within her organization. We talk less about Salesforce. We talk more about the hotel industry as a whole, and we talk about innovation. We talk about technology. We talk about AI. We talk about reaching new customers and about how our role inside of hotels in hospitality as a whole is evolving. What’s happening to travelers? How is it shaping and how is it changing how we reach new customers? So awesome, really interesting topics.
Jackie, welcome to the turndown. It’s a pleasure to have you here today. I can’t wait to pick your brain, to have a great conversation with you. And to kick it off, I’d like to start it with the, I guess, softball question that really isn’t a softball question because it talks about how you sleep at night, and what is keeping you up at night specifically these days. Jackie, the floor is yours. The microphone is open. I can’t wait to hear what is on your mind.
Jacqueline Nunley
Oh, thank you. First of all, for having me. It’s such a pleasure to be here. I’ve been waiting on the docket. So I’m really excited to talk to you. And, you know, this is a very interesting question and there’s so many things that keep me up at night, but I think maybe a basic question is, what is keeping me up this quarter when we look at our business.
But considering that we’re at the end of the year and at work we’re in strategic planning mode for what’s to come in twenty twenty four, I think what keeps me up most at night is how to recognize and avoid survivorship bias, which can really misguide organizational decision making if we’re only looking at the year as what factored in successes rather than the holistic view of the industry.
The prime example, for those who are not so familiar with this, is when I think about the mid market sector, that could be a good example. So I hear a lot of success stories of how hotels have seamlessly integrated technology or CRM, and now they’re experimenting with all of these new technologies that are coming into play, AI, data, and how to inform their operations. Or how they’ve pivoted to experiential offerings for their travelers and that sort of thing. But that sort of narrative can really overshadow the reality faced by a lot of similar hotels that are typically struggling with adaptations, maybe because of budget constraints or location.
And in my role, I think it’s really critical to ensure that our plans for next year and beyond encompass the full spectrum of experiences that hoteliers and brands are having out there. So I try to account for not only the successful innovations that have happened, but also those challenges. And right now, that really is the focus. Did I miss something? Have I got everything? And it’s important when advising on what our customers really need from a solutions perspective, what customers need to be successful and what’s coming, what should they focus on. And just having actionable and realistic plans for their growth and their adaptation, that’s what is going to help us advance the industry. That is what is going to solve the right problems. That is what is going to encourage us to put out the right solutions for all of the segments of hospitality. So, yeah, I worry about that a lot.
Sebastien Leitner
If I may sort of paraphrase the things that worry you, is it more the inequality between those that innovate and those that have yet to discover innovation and newer tools?
Jacqueline Nunley
I would say yes. But there’s a nuance in that. It’s hard not to hear about all these new tools. I think everyone is pretty well informed in this day and age. But it’s what can be actioned and what are the priorities that you should be focusing on? And do you have access to those types of solutions that will allow you to be able to ramp up quick? Now it’s really looking at the aspects of those who can, who have, and have been successful. But what about the ones who really want to get there but don’t know where to start? Or need specific tools to be able to get them to where they are going.
Sebastien Leitner
It resonates with me sometimes, and I’m subject to that myself. Right? Like, I hear people talk about we’ve implemented a new AI powered product. And my visceral reaction is like, oh, no, not another AI powered product, because AI is not new, but everyone likes to use that word right now. Because it’s sort of the new thing. The new avocado toast.
Jacqueline Nunley
It’s the new avocado toast. I like it. AI is the new avocado toast.
Sebastien Leitner
Perfect. Let’s park that. But, yeah, to your point, what is in it for me? What does that really mean? And does it help me save a staff member at reception? Does it help me create better experiences with my guests? What does it actually do? And oftentimes that translation is not often palpable or identifiable easily. Is that something you’re noticing as well? Or is it education that is missing? Like, what can we do to help people discover innovation and take that leap that they need in order to adopt a new technology?
Jacqueline Nunley
So what you’re trying to say is if we went to brunch, I don’t have to have avocado toast. I should explore other options. At least have the option. So it’s really about discovery. And where you are now, that understanding is gonna determine where it is that you might need to up level or you might need to fill in a gap that you haven’t been doing, that you haven’t been aware of, that you might have missed, a lot of which is done manually. That’s the education portion.
Then we have the challenges in the industry. So when it comes to people and filling roles, I don’t think that the challenge has been so difficult that we can’t find people to work in the industry, while that is a challenge that is real and is being experienced. But I think this is on the same track as avoiding survivorship bias, looking at the other side. You’re so short staffed that your employees are doing so much more than they should be doing because you haven’t had a conversation around what can be automated and what can be made more efficient so that the employee’s job is easier.
So in answering your question, it’s looking at all of those pieces. It’s not just one path. It’s education, it’s really an assessment of where you need these new tools and need to innovate. And then it’s really matching that to what your brand is all about and what your message is and what you’re trying to put out in the market. And it’s an orchestration of those three things that is going to allow these hoteliers to understand what sort of outcomes they can achieve based upon the people who have already done it or are on their journey. If we share those stories and make sure that they are informed.
Sebastien Leitner
Yeah. Interesting. You talk to hoteliers, I assume, quite frequently. You’ve been in this industry for some time. I think you and I met probably, let’s not age ourselves, fifteen, eighteen years ago. Some time ago. I think it was actually in Germany, if I’m not mistaken.
Jacqueline Nunley
It could have been there or it could be somewhere. I think it was in Germany. Yes. We first met in Germany, and then later on here in the States.
Sebastien Leitner
Yeah. I’m curious as you’ve been in this industry for some time. You talk to hoteliers. If you look at the pain points that hoteliers have today versus, let’s say, ten years ago or fifteen years ago, is it fundamentally different, or has it not changed much from your perspective?
Jacqueline Nunley
I think it’s changed. We’ve certainly gotten better at the running of hospitality from a technology perspective. And you and I both know this, if we talk about what distribution looked like way back when we met versus today, it’s night and day. I think we were using a modem at some point. So from a technology perspective, it’s certainly changed.
From a practice perspective, I think that area needs to be assessed very carefully. Even the roles that exist within hotels, and we’ll talk about that hopefully a little bit later. But have the roles changed? No. Fundamentally, hospitality is delivered a certain way. But what has changed about those roles is really the people. We have new people in hospitality delivering hospitality. So in that, there may be some changes that have been noticed. Then we’ve had real disruptions, a crisis, a pandemic that has changed consumers’ minds and hearts on how they want to experience hospitality. That has had to have an effect on how we deliver hospitality, what it takes to deliver hospitality. So in short, I think that it’s changed fundamentally in those areas: people, customers, technology.
Sebastien Leitner
I’m curious, as you sort of prepare for next year, twenty twenty four, because you mentioned that transition phase right now from twenty three into twenty four. What are the challenges that you in your role are facing today and how you’re tackling them?
Jacqueline Nunley
So I don’t think that I’m unique in saying that the biggest challenge, because I work in technology, the biggest challenge is really how to take advantage or harness the availability of AI technology. Now, and also in the near future, that’s going to help me and others do their jobs better. So in my role, I have to do a lot of analysis now to look back, to listen to talking heads, to talk to customers and find out, how did your year really go?
And I would love to take advantage of adopting more efficient methods that may be technologically agnostic to help me develop the frameworks that allow me to prioritize or focus on what drives the most value for our strategic objectives and our customers. So what that means is I’m leveraging our own resources here at Salesforce to automate some of the more routine aspects of my job. And that’s what’s going to allow me to focus on those high level strategic analysis and decision making. And that’s possibly going to help me speed up the process, but the most important part is there’s a higher degree of accuracy and insight that I can actually use to help my colleagues get to where they’re going too.
Sebastien Leitner
I feel like, especially in the last sort of maybe twelve months, we kind of had to relearn our jobs again, right, or the tools that we’ve been using. Is that how you feel as well? Like, maybe a year or two ago, you were doing things a certain way and with the emergence of AI supported tools and services, your role somewhat has changed. You can focus on different things. Is that fair?
Jacqueline Nunley
Yes. It has. A really good example is, at this time of the year, this is where some of the best articles are written, some of the most interesting reports come out, it’s all about the year and what happened in travel and hospitality, some of the best webinars, some of the best podcasts come out. And I do focus some of my time in writing. And what I’ve discovered is there’s some really great tools out there that help me structure my articles to be more effective. Whether it’s checking plagiarism or curating citations, that’s going to help me deliver better content that has more credibility. And I could go on and on, the list is pretty endless for these amazing creators who are providing us with tools that allow us to be better at what we do.
So in your question, there must have been something that’s changed. Oh, I can see a real big change from last year in December to this year in December with how I’m going about providing this knowledge and information to those that need it.
Sebastien Leitner
Interesting. Yeah. I feel I’ve become myself a little bit more concise in my communication. And I think we’ve all had that development in the last few years that our attention span has become shorter and shorter. So we would like to get to or be informed of the opportunity or any information as quickly as possible so that we decide, should we continue to pay attention or should we stop or should we do something else? Or is this important or is this not?
Jacqueline Nunley
I absolutely agree with you, and it’s also because there’s so much noise. How much noise in the world? How do you pay attention to the things that are actually important?
Sebastien Leitner
So let’s talk about that. We have hospitality that is administered by a new generation of people. The age is probably somewhere between twenty to twenty five if you look at a hotel anywhere in the world. They’ve grown up without modems. They’ve grown up with a very different digital experience. And they’re servicing customers who may be five to ten, fifteen years older because that’s sort of probably the average age of customers staying at their properties. And they’re going to be future guests too, they’re ultimately becoming the future guests of tomorrow.
We often at Cloudbeds get told that it’s hard to train staff on legacy systems, on older user interfaces, on technology. How quickly do we have to innovate our technology to ensure that our future generation of users, meaning the hotel staff, don’t get discouraged by what is the oldest industry in the world?
Jacqueline Nunley
It’s interesting. I’m listening to you asking that question and I’m thinking about this younger generation coming in. And I’m wondering whether it’s just the technology. I mean, we were gonna talk about roles in hospitality and I don’t think it’s a problem with the technology. I think it has to do with the roles being so rigid. So that’s my perspective, but I truly believe that maybe hospitality jobs have become a little bit boring because of the rigidity, the rigid way that we go about execution of what needs to be done within roles.
Sebastien Leitner
Okay. And I’m with you. So let’s just talk about this. So if you look at the basics of hospitality. Just go back to a twelve room, ten room hotel or a bed and breakfast. Right? And the proprietor played the role of the host and the front desk agent and the concierge and they doubled up as the chef and possibly the housekeeper as well. Made coffee as well, sure, Jackie. But wasn’t that what being hospitable is about? Now think about this, when someone comes and visits, especially now during the holidays, don’t we play all of those roles or at least some of them to be hospitable?
Jacqueline Nunley
So in that sense, we’ve tied people to roles so rigidly, quite frankly, it’s boring when you’re doing the same thing all the time. I’m not going to hear great stories from you and the visitors that you had over the holidays, unless there was some sort of chaos and balance and that sort of thing. But it’s interesting. You have an interest in how your guests feel and how you want to treat them and enjoy the holiday and have some outcome.
But I’ve seen some brands actually take steps of banding traditional roles. And it’s gotten me really excited because some of them are supported by technology. What do you have access to that makes your job easier? And some are in alignment with how these young people want to work. So how do you actually foster an interest and a commitment to be part of the industry? I think it’s worthwhile to explore what that might look like from a hotel or a hotel brand that is gearing up to start employing a younger generation with a different mindset and a different attention span.
If we want to convince our people that they should stay in our industry, they have to be exposed to a wider range of what it actually means to be hospitable. So I know that came from a different angle, but I think it’s an important aspect of, maybe what we’re doing with technology and innovating with technology and the applications does need to evolve. But I don’t think that’s the only thing that is causing the reluctance to work in hospitality.
Sebastien Leitner
So the job descriptions have to change, or be expanded, or just made a lot more fun, more interesting?
Jacqueline Nunley
Yes. I’d like to be able to be behind the counter and serve you a cup of coffee. Instead of being stuck behind a desk all day, maybe that little nuance is going to make my job a little bit more interesting when I can support my colleague who stepped out for lunch and do something else.
Sebastien Leitner
I was talking to someone recently who had his team be the social influencer of his company. And they would walk around the property and record themselves working on the property and sharing the experiences that they were having, right, whether it was making bread or unloading a wine delivery or something. And I thought that was super cool, and they were posting these videos as employees of the property. It was very genuine. It was unedited. Sometimes they put some odd songs, but it was their choices on what songs they picked. And it was genuine. And I don’t know whether that’s the answer, but I thought that was creative. It was leveraging the energy of the teams in order to tell a story about what guests can potentially experience at that property.
Jacqueline Nunley
Yeah. And who’s working there? There’s another aspect to all this that is very much a part of a business, but I remember a time, you and I are old enough to kind of remember a time where your local hotel was a place where you and your family frequented. And then we grew up and all of a sudden hotels were just for travelers. Well, it seemed that way. And there were many stories that actually supported that.
Yet, we didn’t take into account, and I learned this from a hotel brand, we didn’t take into account that any traveler coming into a city and staying at a hotel was there to do business in the community. So it’s really encouraging to see some of these innovators of post-pandemic hospitality taking that into account based on the realization that the community is what helps sustain some of these hotels who might have had to close their doors, had it not been for support of their communities.
And there’s some really endearing stories out there how some roles like a concierge role becomes a liaison role where they invite the community back in. So while we’re still grappling with this challenge to hire people back, I think when you really look at it, you have to ask whether the roles of the people who work in hospitality are interesting enough anymore. Well, I think it’s time for some experimentation. I mean, don’t go wild, but maybe that is something that needs to be tweaked to encourage this younger generation to be part of what we call hospitality and the industry that we love.
Sebastien Leitner
Yeah. Here’s sort of a myth that I wanted to bust, if you will, if that’s the exact expression I wanted to use. When you grow up working in hospitality, I grew up working in hospitality age of twenty five or twenty six, etcetera. I was envious of the business traveler staying at my hotel. I was like, this is a fantastic life. I love it. I wanna become that business traveler and travel around the world and see all these amazing places.
As you grow older and you start traveling for business, your perspective changes. You’re away from your family, you’re away from your friends, from your loved ones. And what looked like a privilege is no longer a privilege. It suddenly becomes time that you’re not spending with your loved ones, with your kids, with your family, etcetera. And Zoom or whatever tools and cameras that we’re using has allowed us to be more sustainable in our travel, if you will, or be more selective in our travels. Do you see that continuing over time? Meaning the trips or the travel we do needs to matter, needs to have an impact.
Jacqueline Nunley
I couldn’t agree with you more. I think it does have to have an impact. I think that tools like Zoom allow us to be able to gain that balance. That also addresses how you felt when you had to travel every week and you were away from loved ones, etcetera. I think the beauty of this is we’ve been given some balance. And sure, it didn’t seem like that when it first started. Everybody was like, it’s because of the pandemic. But if you’ve been working from home for a long time, you might have had a different perspective.
It’s like now you have a good balance to be able to still connect with people online, and it’s okay. There’s no pressure for you to be in front of somebody. But you use these tools as a way to nurture relationships as well. Stay in touch. It’s like the new version of picking up your phone and making a call or texting someone in the business world, and it’s acceptable. So that helps you balance out that whole time with my family versus being on the road. And then intentionally traveling to meet face to face because it matters and because there’s a valuable outcome that you’re getting or pursuing. So I think it just gives us balance. We can’t always look at this and go, oh, no, the wrong way to go. I think there’s always something positive to be derived from technology that’s introduced that can help you do your job.
Sebastien Leitner
I also feel, and I’m curious on your perspective whether you agree or disagree, I feel if we invest in meeting someone in person, the value of that time has increased significantly.
Jacqueline Nunley
Oh, yes. A hundred percent. Huge. If I dedicate travel time to this opportunity, to this partnership, to this relationship, whatever we’re talking about, whether it’s leisure or corporate travel, it elevates the priority for everyone involved. It suddenly makes it extremely important. And you wanna control the outcome, you wanna make sure that it is something that is successful no matter where you engage. And you want to make sure that you’re bringing the best possible solutions so that you actually have a valuable outcome.
And I’ve found that when I travel in person to meet, the outcome is far more valuable than it used to be. Not just because you don’t meet that often, but because of the effort that you’re making. The effort that you’re making to actually understand that customer’s problems, do your homework before you go, really have great solutions that show that you understand what type of problems they’re trying to solve. But really connecting on a level where you both know, okay, this vendor is here to help me, and I am here to help this customer. It’s more meaningful.
Sebastien Leitner
It’s more meaningful. Yeah. Yeah. Let’s go back to that next generation. You do a lot of work with Salesforce around CRM, around reaching new customers, segmenting, understanding your business, if you will. Think about this new customer of ours that will soon start hopefully traveling, right, twenty five years of age. How are they inspired today and in the future when selecting where they go, how they travel, where they stay? Like, how are we reaching them? Because I know where I’m booking my travel, but I feel like this future generation is inspired by very different things or by very different tools than you and I potentially are. I’m curious what your thoughts are around this.
Jacqueline Nunley
Gosh. I have a lot of thoughts around engaging with, I’m gonna call them Gen Z, which is twenty five. Yes. It has happened. Some of the things that I have noticed personally with Gen Z is what an absolute beautiful generation this is, meaning in how they think and what they hold important. And there’s an aspect of, at least I’ve experienced, there’s a deeper aspect of caring. Caring about their environment, caring about people around them, caring about others that are not in their vicinity.
I think it’s really refreshing to see a generation kind of grow up in such a technologically advanced capacity but still have that human approach to everything. I think that the opinions of others, it might be an age thing, but the opinion of others seems to be more important in this generation’s view. So it’s really understanding where they are and how to meet them where they are. That is going to encourage them to kind of take the leap and start traveling the way we expect them to travel.
But one of the things that I have noticed, and I’m not saying that this is a trend, this is something that is going to be a very solid strategy in the future, which is this generation wants a sense of community, and that is extremely important to them. And it’s those things that are going to interest them in travel more than anything. If we look at what’s the foundation of it, I think those two levers are certainly areas that hoteliers should be looking at or any travel companies should be looking at. What fosters a sense of community? And what does good?
Sebastien Leitner
What is going to disrupt travel? What are we talking about, like five years? Twenty thirty. I mean, you’re looking at your twenty twenty four planning. And I think right now we’re all in this year and next year, meaning twenty four, twenty five. Is there something on the horizon that you think we need to carefully avoid or is there something that we need to absolutely embrace because it’s going to change how we do business? We talked a little bit about AI, and I think that sort of has disrupted, or I like that better, accelerated. What might accelerate?
Jacqueline Nunley
If we’re talking about twenty twenty four, I think the avocado toast we’ve already identified is AI. Reality is that most companies out there have been using AI for a long time, it just wasn’t called AI. It was more of a predictive nature rather than a generative nature. And I believe that the generative portion is going to accelerate. That is going to usher in a completely different way of working in harmony with generative AI technology. And that’s going to help a lot of the questions that you asked about innovation, do we have to be thinking about these applications and simplifying them for this new generation of employees. I think generative AI is actually going to help us get there faster than the usual generation of an innovative way to be able to do work or engage with an application.
Now there’s that. If we’re looking at a broader lens of what’s going to happen beyond twenty twenty four, I think that gets really interesting because you have to start thinking about, well, what comes after AI? So if we jump really far, going ten years later, and we still stick to the subject of how that’s going to affect hospitality, advanced AI and personalization algorithms evolving to the point where they create every single aspect based on an individual’s preferences, past behavior, and real time needs. And I think you have to join the dots at this point. It’s not just one thing disrupting or changing or accelerating, it forces the other things to accelerate.
So I cover travel and hospitality, but I think that in another ten years, transportation will go fully autonomous. And that will really transform how travelers move from place to place. It makes it a seamless, safe and efficient way of being able to do that, but that’s going to affect the logistics of travel. And it’s also going to alter the landscape of travel destinations. So that could be really interesting.
Sebastien Leitner
Where will we travel to? Do you think?
Jacqueline Nunley
Yes. Because if there’s nothing to get somewhere in the way, and you have the technology that allows you to be able to act on your whims right now, why wouldn’t you? Sustainably and safely. I mean, I get super excited when I hear stories. And I really try to keep my ear on the pulse on the travel side of all the testing of air taxis now. What does that actually mean for business travel? It’s an interesting, I think there’s a very interesting future out there, but the key is going to be joining the dots. Because it’s not about moving one thing anymore. It’s about that one thing moving others.
Sebastien Leitner
Before we wrap up, I’d love to ask you a few quick fire questions. Something, I’ll shoot you a question and you just answer. Okay?
Jacqueline Nunley
I’m ready.
Sebastien Leitner
What is one piece of technology that you think will disappear from a hotel room?
Jacqueline Nunley
The phone.
Sebastien Leitner
Okay. What is one piece of technology or one thing in a hotel that you think should change and upgrade tomorrow?
Jacqueline Nunley
Does it have to be technology?
Sebastien Leitner
No. You could invest in people as well.
Jacqueline Nunley
Room design.
Sebastien Leitner
Room design. Okay. What are you changing?
Jacqueline Nunley
Oh, I’m changing the bog standard two side tables, two lamps, bed made a certain way, facing a certain direction, TV in front of you. Room design.
Sebastien Leitner
Okay. Room design. Great. What’s your next travel destination that you’re going to and that gets you excited?
Jacqueline Nunley
I am going to Istanbul.
Sebastien Leitner
That is exciting. Leisure or business?
Jacqueline Nunley
Pleasure. Funnily enough, leisure. I’m tagging along with a friend who’s going to do business, but I am leisuring it up.
Sebastien Leitner
Fantastic. Fantastic. Jackie, we could go on for hours, but I’m conscious of time as well. I thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, your insights, your experience. For spending a good hour with us today and I appreciate you joining the program.
Jacqueline Nunley
It’s been a pleasure, Sebastian. Always good to see you.
Sebastien Leitner
Thank you for listening to the turn down. Don’t forget to subscribe and tune in next week as we discover new exciting guests.
